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General Category => Cards => New Card Suggestions => Topic started by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 05:19:53 pm

Title: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 05:19:53 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/kuTWZoz.png) (http://i.imgur.com/S4rBf65.png)

Soul Stone / Soul Stone
Cost: 3 :death / 3 :death
Stats (if creature or weapon): -NA-
Ability(ies):
When a creature dies, its strength is added to the stone. Based on the power in the stone, there is a chance that it will explode.
The explode chance is given as: P/(Cap+P)
Where Cap is the amount of stored power for which the stone has a 50% chance to explode.
 
(http://www4a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP5831cgeb473cfg6274g000047d7e2644ihchc04?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=54&w=300.&h=188.&cdf=RangeControl)

When activated, the stored strength is transfered to a target weapon (equipped or flown)

If the stone explodes, it deals damage equal to the stored strength distributed randomly among all players and creatures.

(http://i.imgur.com/IzTJ3kR.png) (http://i.imgur.com/yNCnAAK.png)

Think scavenger for weapons, but stores all of a dying creatures strength instead of just one point.

Mechanics wise the card would store 2 numbers. The number of souls stored and the total strength stored:
When a creature dies, its strength is added to the strength variable and the soul count is incremented

When the card is used it adds: Strength * (1-%LossPerSoul)^SoulCount
This should help reduce spark abuse while still allowing it to store multiple creature deaths per turn.

(http://i.imgur.com/xSAU1AE.png) (http://i.imgur.com/xfIw53X.png)
Think scavenger for weapons, but stores all of a dying creatures strength instead of just one point.

An alternative form ideas:
-raise the cost and allow it to be used repeatedly (no sacrifice)
-allow targeting of any weapon (ran out of card space but we have more in oEtG than this editor can fit)
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 05:21:29 pm
Quote from: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 05:19:53 pm
Think scavenger for weapons.

Please clarify whether this stores one attack per dying thing like scavenger, or if it stores all the attack like I thought it did before I read this line.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 05:37:11 pm
Ah, sorry for the confusion. It stores all of the attack.

This is a good area for balancing though. E.g. should it store all strength from any number of creatures, or just 1 creature per turn?... or maybe gain X charge per dying creature instead.

The goal is just to have a way to store up attack power from dying creatures and transfer it to your weapon. The details can be tweaked as needed for balance.

Any thoughts on that area? I.e. is storing all attack power from any number of dying creatures okay or should is this going to be OP / too easily abusable?
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 05:41:00 pm
If it's full value of all the creatures, things like sparktal or infected are probably going to be the biggest problems to balance around. I don't think it's impossible to balance around stuff like this, but it's going to be tricky and is probably going to result in having a card that is okay when comboing with sparktal and terrible in any other situation. Limiting it to once per turn solves this somewhat, but pulls it out of scavenger territory and more into writ territory. My first impression is that giving it like 1-2 attack to store per death is better than full attack. If you go that route it probably doesn't need to be a duo still.

Basically I don't really know what the best direction to go is, but I remember when sparktal/writ could consistently pull 3 ttw, and I fear this is potentially stronger as-is (though not necessarily faster).
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 06:04:34 pm
Storing 1 to 2 attack per creature could work but I would like to get a little more bang per creature...

What about diminishing returns? I.e. the total power transfered to your weapon drops by something 5 to 10% per "soul" stored.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: Chapuz on March 19, 2015, 06:27:19 pm
I love it. I wonder how Spite , biffed kittens and other combinations can be used
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 06:35:39 pm
Could give it a chance to overload (i.e. destroy itself, possibly damaging owner) based on the amount of power stored, which would disincentivize going for sparktal-esque bursts, but still allow the full value of things to be transferred (as long as it was transferred quickly before it overloaded and exploded). Not sure of exact formula or exact other balance details if you went this route, just an idea atm.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 06:41:14 pm
Lol... I just posted an update with diminishing returns, but I do really like the explode chance. Especially if the explosion causes a mass CC of some kind (since that could be useful in its own right).
So something like
(http://i.imgur.com/zq5BSN4.png) (http://i.imgur.com/KbpofFd.png)
After each death the explode chance gets incremented by about 5 to 10% ... or just go with a flat amount.
Explosion could distribute damage equal to the stored strength amongst all creatures and players... Or maybe make it more painful for the owner if that is too abusable.
Store owned dying creature strength. May explode
:light : Self-Sacrifice. Transfer strength to target weapon.

So which version do you like better?
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 06:49:22 pm
I have no opinion currently on how to distribute the damage, but I like having the explode chance being tied to the total power stored more than to the number of times power has been stored. Basically I mean that if you store the power from ten 1-attack skeletons you should have the same explode chance as if you store from one 10-attack dragon.

edit: Note that the explode should be a drawback, so if it's purely mass CC we're back into OP territory. I don't mind if it's a drawback that can be turned to your advantage if handled correctly (like half of damage to your face, other half distributed to all creatures or something). But if sparktal just becomes "either you get an 80 attack staff or you completely field wipe everything" then it's still an issue. Also keep in mind that if it is mass CC and you explode one of them while you have two in play, the other is going to fill up with all the power from the first one killing everything.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 06:57:01 pm
Ah! I get where you are going. Some kind of formula is in order there.

So explode chance can be modeled by: Power/(X+Power)
Where X is the amount of Power that yields a 50% explosion chance.

Example: Explode chance vs Power for X=20
(http://www4a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP5831cgeb473cfg6274g000047d7e2644ihchc04?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=54&w=300.&h=188.&cdf=RangeControl)
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 08:01:45 pm
Without addressing the specific details of the formula (which I currently have no opinion on), be sure to include how often the check is checked in your consideration. Is it rolled once for every time a creature dies (i.e. one roll for a ten attack dragon, ten rolls for ten one attack skeletons)? Once for every power gained (ten times total for both dragon and 10 skeletons)? Once a turn? I have no strong opinion on which option, and all of them can produce the same overall end result just by making sure the formula is accounting for, eg, six rolls when gaining six power. Once per death seems like the obvious thing, but it also means that it is very heavily weighted towards killing few big creatures as opposed to killing many small creatures.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: Chapuz on March 19, 2015, 08:25:59 pm
Nan don't explode!
It's currently a duo card so it would be hard to make it in many decks.
Proposal: get it implemented without the exploding and don't nerf it until ot's proven OP or unbalanced
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 08:29:32 pm
Seems reasonable. We can go with the original version (see spoiler) which just stores all power from any number of dying creatures.
If the sparktal combo is too potent then the explosion nerf or diminishing returns nerf can be added.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 08:31:24 pm
Howabout we implement it like this to begin with and then buff it if it's too weak?

edit:
metamorphosis is soulstone
04809014sb05ksb026rt01mrt067dp047ee02o090380m02o0m018pk


edit2: 4-5 ttw wasn't enough, so here
0480905ksb04kvj026rt01mrt04n1f047ee02o090280m02o0m018po


edit3: on the "fun" end of things (and not at all on the OP end of things), the exploding version lets you give it to the opponent, kill a bunch of stuff, and blow it up in their face.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 08:57:43 pm
In light of the massive ball-tal combo rampage, a nerf seems warranted.
Explode nerf seems most fun to me since it gives stone a little more leverage. I.e. if enemy goes around killing your creatures they could end up detonating the stone and end up zaping their own creatures as well as yours.
Makes it a nice M.A.D. type of card then.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: Chapuz on March 19, 2015, 09:34:31 pm
You use this card for a combo, not for pteventing CC. A combo card that has a chance of killing itself isn't gonna be used much.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: cg on March 19, 2015, 09:44:00 pm
Every combo has risks, even if the risk is just the instability of drawing all the cards in the combo. How is taking some damage different than bottomdecking all your $lynchpin_card?
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 11:17:37 pm
Quote from: Chapuz on March 19, 2015, 09:34:31 pm
You use this card for a combo, not for pteventing CC. A combo card that has a chance of killing itself isn't gonna be used much.
It can both be defensive soft anti-CC and offensive mass CC (like unstable gas).
Or if used in a more controled manner, it can provide a nice weapon damage boost.

That makes for a pretty flexible card doesn't it?

The detonation chance can be adjusted and tuned easily. The point here is that you can still use it for a combo to give a heafty buff to your weapon without very much explosion risk. Or you can be daring and try for a very large buff at the risk of killing off lots of creatures and possibly heavily injuring both players...
Or you could just go for the explosion route and use it as a nasty mass CC option... voodoo combos come to mind there.
Or you can just sit on it as a M.A.D. threat against enemy CC.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: Zaranir on May 09, 2015, 02:42:30 am
Just lurking here, but match the description with the pic (on the quanta cost).

Interesting Light-Death synergy, but I can't remember a deck... wait, I can... it was... the PDial!!!

Just kidding, interesting idea, at the moment without place (I could only think of a full upped Flying Arsenic deck).
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: Chapuz on May 10, 2015, 01:54:32 am
Wait, what does the explosion exactly do?
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: kirbylover314 on May 10, 2015, 01:56:25 am
Quote from: Chapuz on May 10, 2015, 01:54:32 am
Wait, what does the explosion exactly do?

Quote from: OdinVanguard on March 19, 2015, 05:19:53 pm
If the stone explodes, it deals damage equal to the stored strength distributed randomly among all players and creatures.
Title: Re: Soul Stone
Post by: OdinVanguard on May 11, 2015, 04:56:59 pm
Ya, originally I tried craming a description of "explode" into the card, but there just isn't space.
Eventually, there will be an updated card editor that has as much space as the cards in oEtG, but for now, I have to be brief to some extent.